Comments on: Women in positions of spiritual leadership Part 1: 4 reasons that the Bible does not allow it http://www.soundchurch.org/4-reasons-why-the-bible-does-not-allow-women-to-hold-positions-of-spiritual-leadership-in-the-church/ Applying the principles of the church as the pillar and ground of the truth Sun, 05 Feb 2012 17:00:16 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Women in positions of spiritual leadership Part 2: Should we separate? – Sound Church http://www.soundchurch.org/4-reasons-why-the-bible-does-not-allow-women-to-hold-positions-of-spiritual-leadership-in-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-321 Women in positions of spiritual leadership Part 2: Should we separate? – Sound Church Wed, 01 Feb 2012 22:04:25 +0000 http://www.soundchurch.org/?p=468#comment-321 [...] our last post on this topic, we established  why a woman who functions in a position of spiritual authority over men in the [...] [...] our last post on this topic, we established  why a woman who functions in a position of spiritual authority over men in the [...]

]]> By: Heidi Bright Parales, M.Div. http://www.soundchurch.org/4-reasons-why-the-bible-does-not-allow-women-to-hold-positions-of-spiritual-leadership-in-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-317 Heidi Bright Parales, M.Div. Wed, 01 Feb 2012 03:07:50 +0000 http://www.soundchurch.org/?p=468#comment-317 Hi Joshua, You raise many points, and I want to address one; it might bring clarity to the others. There is far too much to say than can be placed in a little comment. I will only talk about 1 Tim. Paul appears to be addressing a specific problem in the congregation (1 Tim. 1:3,4,6,7,19,20; and 5:13). Apparently some false teachings were circulating among the women, and these ideas were causing problems. One of the problems involved the women in the congregation being open to unorthodox ideas (1 Tim. 3:14, 15). Here, Paul was encouraging women to learn in the way rabbinical students learned. The verse shows a radical movement toward the idea that women were full participants within the Christian community and had the intelligence to comprehend the teachings of Jesus. Without a proper education, the women could not protect themselves against heresies. Among the heresies probably were theories of origins such as Gnostic creation accounts that taught Eve was created first, and that she herself created Adam. "Authentein" usually is translated “to exercise authority." By the first century, the noun form of authentes was used by several writers to indicate an author of something. Here, the verb tense of authentein indicated possession, a description, or something specific. Applying this information, the verse would read, “I do not allow a woman to teach that she is the author of a man.” Paul connected verses 11 and 12 to verses 13 and 14 with the Greek word gar, signifying he was about to further address the issues raised in verses 11 and 12. Paul explained the creation account in Genesis to counter false Gnostic creation stories and to verify that woman was not the author of man. Paul wanted to end the spread of false doctrines by Ephesian women, so pulling the creation story into this letter DOES place the verses in cultural context. To end the spread of the myths, Paul’s solution was to provide the women with a proper Christian education, under the authority of the Scriptures, so they would eventually be able to share in ministry, which included teaching and leading. Hi Joshua,
You raise many points, and I want to address one; it might bring clarity to the others. There is far too much to say than can be placed in a little comment. I will only talk about 1 Tim.
Paul appears to be addressing a specific problem in the congregation (1 Tim. 1:3,4,6,7,19,20; and 5:13). Apparently some false teachings were circulating among the women, and these ideas were causing problems. One of the problems involved the women in the congregation being open to unorthodox ideas (1 Tim. 3:14, 15).
Here, Paul was encouraging women to learn in the way rabbinical students learned. The verse shows a radical movement toward the idea that women were full participants within the Christian community and had the intelligence to comprehend the teachings of Jesus. Without a proper education, the women could not protect themselves against heresies.
Among the heresies probably were theories of origins such as Gnostic creation accounts that taught Eve was created first, and that she herself created Adam.
“Authentein” usually is translated “to exercise authority.” By the first century, the noun form of authentes was used by several writers to indicate an author of something. Here, the verb tense of authentein indicated possession, a description, or something specific. Applying this information, the verse would read, “I do not allow a woman to teach that she is the author of a man.”
Paul connected verses 11 and 12 to verses 13 and 14 with the Greek word gar, signifying he was about to further address the issues raised in verses 11 and 12. Paul explained the creation account in Genesis to counter false Gnostic creation stories and to verify that woman was not the author of man.
Paul wanted to end the spread of false doctrines by Ephesian women, so pulling the creation story into this letter DOES place the verses in cultural context.
To end the spread of the myths, Paul’s solution was to provide the women with a proper Christian education, under the authority of the Scriptures, so they would eventually be able to share in ministry, which included teaching and leading.

]]> By: Joshua Caucutt http://www.soundchurch.org/4-reasons-why-the-bible-does-not-allow-women-to-hold-positions-of-spiritual-leadership-in-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-316 Joshua Caucutt Tue, 31 Jan 2012 16:51:06 +0000 http://www.soundchurch.org/?p=468#comment-316 If I understand you correctly, you are attempting to establish that since most modern believers view the "holy kiss" as a culturally based command, therefore we might also view the prohibition against women functioning as an elder in the same light. If my understanding of your question is correct, I respond with this: If we continue reading in 1 Timothy, Paul takes support for his argument from outside his immediate cultural context: "For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but athe woman being deceived, fell into transgression." Furthermore, Paul talks about the role of women in the context of spiritual authority in the local church in 1 Corinthians 4:34,35 and even goes on to state that if a person does not subject themselves to this command, that person should not be recognized as being a messenger of God. The commands concerning women in positions of spiritual authority in the local church are far greater than their cultural context. From the beginning, God's ordained functional order, especially as it relates to the family and spiritual leadership in the church to be men over women. I would also add that if these commands concerning women are taken as merely "cultural," then there are a whole bunch of Biblical directives that become questionable on the grounds of culture. If I understand you correctly, you are attempting to establish that since most modern believers view the “holy kiss” as a culturally based command, therefore we might also view the prohibition against women functioning as an elder in the same light. If my understanding of your question is correct, I respond with this:

If we continue reading in 1 Timothy, Paul takes support for his argument from outside his immediate cultural context: “For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but athe woman being deceived, fell into transgression.” Furthermore, Paul talks about the role of women in the context of spiritual authority in the local church in 1 Corinthians 4:34,35 and even goes on to state that if a person does not subject themselves to this command, that person should not be recognized as being a messenger of God. The commands concerning women in positions of spiritual authority in the local church are far greater than their cultural context. From the beginning, God’s ordained functional order, especially as it relates to the family and spiritual leadership in the church to be men over women.

I would also add that if these commands concerning women are taken as merely “cultural,” then there are a whole bunch of Biblical directives that become questionable on the grounds of culture.

]]> By: John Finkelde http://www.soundchurch.org/4-reasons-why-the-bible-does-not-allow-women-to-hold-positions-of-spiritual-leadership-in-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-310 John Finkelde Tue, 31 Jan 2012 02:29:52 +0000 http://www.soundchurch.org/?p=468#comment-310 So one question do you apply the same hermeneutic to 2 Cor 13:12 as you do to 1 Tim 2:12? So one question do you apply the same hermeneutic to 2 Cor 13:12 as you do to 1 Tim 2:12?

]]> By: Heidi Bright Parales, M.Div. http://www.soundchurch.org/4-reasons-why-the-bible-does-not-allow-women-to-hold-positions-of-spiritual-leadership-in-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-307 Heidi Bright Parales, M.Div. Sat, 28 Jan 2012 23:19:41 +0000 http://www.soundchurch.org/?p=468#comment-307 Biblical data, actually, support women as elders and leaders of congregations. I spent 6 years researching this topic, and felt compelled to place the information in a book, published as "Hidden Voices." It treats the Bible as literally true and addresses every issue raised in this commentary. An entire chapter is devoted to 1 Timothy, another to 1 Corinthians, another to the creation accounts. Paul commends the women Phoebe, a minister, and Junia, outstanding among the apostles. He can't be commending them for their ministerial roles while condemning all women in ministry. Please take a look at this book and weigh the evidence. Thank you. Biblical data, actually, support women as elders and leaders of congregations. I spent 6 years researching this topic, and felt compelled to place the information in a book, published as “Hidden Voices.” It treats the Bible as literally true and addresses every issue raised in this commentary. An entire chapter is devoted to 1 Timothy, another to 1 Corinthians, another to the creation accounts. Paul commends the women Phoebe, a minister, and Junia, outstanding among the apostles. He can’t be commending them for their ministerial roles while condemning all women in ministry. Please take a look at this book and weigh the evidence. Thank you.

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